Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

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Alfred
Messaggi: 396
Iscritto il: 25 mar 2014

Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Alfred » lun ott 02, 2017 5:58 pm

Hi,

found this cap badges on a flea market.

What makes them interesting is the fact, that they are made out of brass with enamel and the star is attched with two prongs.
Not the usual alumium ones with paint.

best regards
Andreas
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Lapa
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Iscritto il: 27 apr 2013

Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Lapa » lun ott 02, 2017 9:01 pm

Andreas,

These are East-German production. I have a general's cap badge of this exact design, the only difference being the extra enamel on yours.
Let me know if some of them might be looking for a welcoming home [110.gif

Marc

Alfred
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Iscritto il: 25 mar 2014

Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Alfred » lun ott 02, 2017 9:10 pm

Marc are these cap badges made for General caps?

best reagrds and thanks
Andreas

Lapa
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Iscritto il: 27 apr 2013

Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Lapa » lun ott 02, 2017 9:16 pm

Andreas,

No, they are not since the field under the red star is enameled white.

It seems that the German, well known for their efficiency, had decided that both types (officer and general) could be produced using the same tools, unlike their Soviet counterparts who had decided that on an officer's cap badge, the star should be struck in one piece with the body, whereas it should be separate on a general's badge.

Marc

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GC*
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da GC* » lun ott 02, 2017 9:24 pm

Alfred ha scritto: Hi,

found this cap badges on a flea market.

What makes them interesting is the fact, that they are made out of brass with enamel and the star is attched with two prongs.
Not the usual alumium ones with paint.

best regards
Andreas
Andreas! I am SO glad to see someone else posting on this forum about cap badges!! [17 [17

So, these ones' you've got are an old tough cookie me and other collectors have been discussing for some time. They've already appeared on the forum. Me and others have our own theories and I have a new piece, related to these cap badges, to show you. First of all, we believe this is a German reparation piece, as said HERE by RichieC, my fellow collector of cap badges and great expert.

It is a very particular piece indeed. As you have noticed, the star is attached with two prongs. This was standard Soviet practice for Soviet M55 cap badges for Generals and Marshals. These cockades however, were all in golden colour, while as you can see this once has the typical white enamel of Officers' cockades, which however have a one-piece construction.
Photos tell more than a thousand words, so here are some of my cockades - FRONT and REVERSE - left an M55 for Generals/Marshals, in the middle the German-made M55 we are talking about and right an Officers' M55 (all in brass)

It is amazing to see that there exist multiple variations of this M55 German made star! I myself have two, HERE.

What I am showing now is I believe the proof that such German made M55s were meant to be cap badges for Generals and Marshals, notwithstanding the white and not golden colour. I am saying this, because I think I managed to buy an equally German made M55 in brass, which displays the white enamel AND a one-piece construction.
IMG_3904.jpg
IMG_3906.jpg

I am not sure though whether any Soviet General or Marshal would ever wear a cockade that was not entirely goldened..that was the distinctive signs of those cockades. Perhaps these two-piece construction cap badges were just worn by Officers too.. [137
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Lapa
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Lapa » lun ott 02, 2017 9:42 pm

GC,

I disagree with you on your assumption that these white enamelled cocades we for generals and marshals. I can safely affirm that NO Soviet general would have agreed to wear an officer's hat badge under any circumstances.

A I mentioned in my previous post, I have a general's cockade of this model. Now, we must account for the one-piece badge you have shown. I believe that it can be explained by the fact that there must have been more than one maker of those, after all, East-Germany was a rather large territory.

When it comes to reparation items made in Germany, I think that we should integrate the production efficiency variable into the equation. The Soviet Union was not looking for efficiency, but for fulfillment of the plan. Post-war Germany was transitioning toward central planning, but their previous industrial mentality was still a reality. I am sure that you have encountered many different reparation items that "look soviet" but present minute production variations which do not strictly conform to the Soviet rule book of the time, but which make complete sense from a production point of view.

Marc

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GC*
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da GC* » mar ott 03, 2017 12:14 pm

I did not notice you had actually answered these messages earlier than me yesterday! Was in a hurry and posted my reply assuming no one else had done so. Apologies!

Also,
Lapa ha scritto: I have a general's cockade of this model
That changes everything! Can we please see it? It would be a first for me..



And, as mentioned in my message, I completely agree with this.
Lapa ha scritto: I can safely affirm that NO Soviet general would have agreed to wear an officer's hat badge under any circumstances.
As well as on this.
Lapa ha scritto: there must have been more than one maker of those, after all, East-Germany was a rather large territory.
As a side to my main research, I've looked into reparations from Germany and into SDAGs (Sowjetisch-Deutsche Aktiengesellschaft). Archival evidence confirms the existence of several enterprises that could have produced articles of this sort for the USSR.

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GC*
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da GC* » lun ott 09, 2017 8:03 pm

Lapa ha scritto: I have a general's cockade of this model
I hate to insist..(but I'm too curious), could we see it? :oops: [hatt

Lapa
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Lapa » mar ott 10, 2017 12:00 am

Unfortunately no, due to the physical distance between us (that is, the cap badge and I [0008024 ).
Sorry!

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GC*
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da GC* » mar ott 10, 2017 5:13 pm

Lapa ha scritto: Unfortunately no, due to the physical distance between us (that is, the cap badge and I [0008024 ).
Sorry!
Damnation! [256
I actually feared this (I would give exactly the same answer if you asked e to show you, well, anything I have in my collection really.. Long-distance sucks :cry: ).
Thanks anyways - I'll keep on hunting for it!

Regaleco
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Re: Older Cap badge (brass made,two pieces)

Messaggio da Regaleco » lun ott 16, 2017 2:15 am

disagree with you on your assumption that these white enamelled cocades we for generals and marshals. I can safely affirm that NO Soviet general would have agreed to wear an officer's hat badge under any circumstances.

A I mentioned in my previous post, I have a general's cockade of this model. Now, we must account for the one-piece badge you have shown. I believe that it can be explained by the fact that there must have been more than one maker of those, after all, East-Germany was a rather large territory.
I agree with Lapa, no soviet general would have agreed to wear this type officer's cockade. This is an extraction from M55 regulation book:
m55coccarde.jpg
It seems that the German, well known for their efficiency, had decided that both types (officer and general) could be produced using the same tools
I agree. This cockade, manufactured in Germany, exists in two types: for officers, with white enamel, and for generals in gold version.
Really a nice catch Andreas!
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