Order of the Red Banner 5 awarding n°787 with COA

[Lapa]

And now for the middle point of the range

Here again, plenty of problems with this one:
. Mintmark is not the proper one for this SN range
. Shape and position of the shield are off
. SN engraving (ar at least what con be made of it...) do not correspond to originals
. Shape of the torch is not as blunt as it must be
. Edge at 2 o'clock has very characteristic shape and indentations

[Lapa]

And now for the obverse:

. Bottom of the shield is slightly higher than the tips of the poles; This is not the case on David's order
. The digit "3" is clearly different from an original, both in shape and in position in the shield
. On original repeat ORB awards, stems at top right and top left of the shield do not go all the way to the very corners of the shield
. Position of the comma at the end of the second line on the banner: on original ORBs in this SN range, it is directly aligned above the top right edge of the "E" below. On David's order, it is aligned mid-way between the letter "E" and "C"

[Lapa]

Right, left keep going on for one more. This one is a bit trickier in the sense that the SN is out of range for this type. So, I browsed through many scans to find something that would be closely matching in terms of mintmark and of reverse shape. Since there is no 100% certainty as to the exact sub-variation we are dealing with, I'll limit my analysis to the most obvious elements that differ from the original.

. Shape of the shield; seen from the reverse, the lower left corner of the shield is higher than the bottom tip of the left pole, and the lower right corner is lower the bottom tip of the right pole.
. SN engraving is "unusual"

[Lapa]

On to the obverse. Here, the most telling detail is the digit "2"; regardless of the serial number range we consider, the Mint never made such a thing. I also point your attention to the shape of the shield, and its position relative to the poles next to it. On original ORB2, the shield is slightly higher than the bottom tips of the poles.

[Lapa]

Just one more remark to wrap this up. As was pointed out, ORB2 SN4270 is normally in the screwback range. However, it could theoretically be possible to find it as a suspension order IF it had been reissued (for example due to loss of the original, for so-called "VP" conversion, etc). Here is an example of a close-by number reissued to the veteran.

[Lapa]

And added then by Alexei:

"The only thing I might add to Marc's excellent exercise in detecting fakes is that the order booklet has also been modified and all the award entries are fake."

[Lapa]

and a little more bit of information regarding ORB 4231:

On your order 2nd RB # 4231(Marc has mentioned):
1. Mint mark was removed and done second time”Monetni Dvor”or struck 2 times and first struck not matches to the second.
2. Serial number was re-punched or re-engraved by tools, I can see numbers 1 and 2 from left and right side from number “1”
Correct me if I’m wrong.

As mentioned before, ORB2 4231 is an official reissue (or replacement) for the originally awarded screwback order.

What does "official reissue" mean? It means that, for some valid reason (theft, loss in specific circumstances, change in regulations, etc), the recipient was entitled to receive a new order bearing the serial number of his originally awarded one. Thus, the Mint was directed to prepare the replacement order with that specific serial number.

In some cases, the Mint had unnumbered orders on hand; they would use one of these to fulfill the request. Most of the time, orders newly produced were already numbered; in this case, the Mint would take one of these, erase the original serial number and engrave the required SN instead. This is what happened with the order I showed.

To get back to the specific points that you outlines:
. the mintmark was not erased then repunched; there is some ghost image just above the mintmark, which was created when the punch hit the surface back after being struck.
. the original SN was indeed erased, then the necessary SN was engraved instead (as I explained above). There may sometimes be some faint traces left of the original SN, although it is more unusual.

I guess that your next question will then be: if the original SN was erased and a new one was engraved instead, how do we know that it is indeed the work of a Mint worker, and not some backyard production. To be honest, there is no 100% guarantee that it is genuine; we must go by observation and comparison with other genuine such pieces. So, to do that, we must consider the way the original SN was erased, then the handwriting used. In this case, both are consistent: this method of SN erasure has been observed on other 100% genuine items (eg from museums, or taken first hand from the recipient), this handwriting is well known, including on other regularly issued orders.

I realize that it may all sound confusing to someone who is starting in this field, but I believe that with time, by observing and comparing, you'll start better understanding what is genuine and what is fake. Unfortunately, there is no crash course available and only experience will bring the necessary knowledge.

Marc

[Tommy]

Marc, your posts highlighting the differences between the fakes and real items are brilliant, thank you.

I find it amazing that people like you and Alexei M etc can recognize the mint workers hand writing. My utmost respect.

Do you recognize anyones engraving as soon as you see it? Like, "there's that funny 7 on this Red Banner, Boris must have been working double shifts down at the Moscow Mint"

[Lapa]

...Do you recognize anyones engraving as soon as you see it? Like, "there's that funny 7 on this Red Banner, Boris must have been working double shifts down at the Moscow Mint"

Well, Tommy, sort of, but probably the other way around. What I mean is that when looking at a fake handwriting, sometimes something looks wrong or unusual and appears different from what it should be.

Marc

[SergioV]

Very interesting debate
thanks for the deep explanation about the orders Marc

Unfortunately a new scam is taking place these days on the bay
scammers are always working to grab the money of passionate collectors..

[filo]

Just one more remark to wrap this up. As was pointed out, ORB2 SN4270 is normally in the screwback range. However, it could theoretically be possible to find it as a suspension order IF it had been reissued (for example due to loss of the original, for so-called "VP" conversion, etc). Here is an example of a close-by number reissued to the veteran.

Marc, Great job / grande lavoro.

So ORB2 4231 is good? / Quindi la ORB2 4231 è buona?

And added then by Alexei:

"The only thing I might add to Marc's excellent exercise in detecting fakes is that the order booklet has also been modified and all the award entries are fake."

In the booklet, the numbers and stamps have been added? http://www.rkka.it/forum/download/file.php?id=152876

[Airon]

Unfortunately, there is no crash course available and only experience will bring the necessary knowledge.

Sort of but posts like yours really helps understanding.
Love it!

[Lapa]

So ORB2 4231 is good? / Quindi la ORB2 4231 è buona?

Filo,
For whatever it might be worth, both Alexei and I think so